Dieter Veldsman: That's great. I know it's a bit of a strange title for a lot of people. So on the one side, they see this crazy individual with wild hair that does experiments down in the lab, but unfortunately, it's not quite as colorful as that. So as the Chief HR Scientist at the Academy to Innovate HR, I've got three main responsibilities. And the first one is I need to drive applied thought leadership.
So working with our clients on their biggest HR challenges, and trying to see how can we guide them into what their next is going to look like? My second responsibility is also driving a lot of our original research insights into our product development, which is all about developing HR professionals. How do we make sure that we contribute towards that public narrative?
And then lastly, really a passion about how can we prepare HR professionals and individuals with the skill sets that they require to be ready for the massive amount of changes that we are seeing in the world of work? So practically my day to day, it's all about engaging with HR communities around the world. It's about doing original research about what's happening in the world of work in HR, and it's about how can we make that practical and applied and convert that into things that people can use in everyday life that is going to be helpful to them on their HR journey?
Felicia Shakiba: And so essentially, you are the perfect interviewee for this subject. So we're so happy to have you.
And if you could tell me, how are trends like the launch of ChatGPT, or sustainability impacting businesses currently?
Dieter Veldsman: I think we first need to acknowledge that it's a really interesting time at the moment in terms of some of the global shifts that we are seeing. And I'm also a firm believer that we are on the cusp of entering almost the next chapter of work and what work is going to look like. And I think we've seen things like generative AI, really awakening that conversation to say, what does the jobs of the future look like? How are organizations going to engage with them as well. But maybe Felicia, two key points that jumps to mind. I think the first one, when we think about generative AI, we first need to acknowledge that AI has been here for a very long period of time.
And then the question we need to ask is, why is this different now? Why all of a sudden has generative AI taking the world by storm? And in my view, it's all about the fact that for the very first time, non technical people have the ability to also access AI and start utilizing it in their personal and in their professional lives. Why is this significant? And we see that with all sorts of statistics around, you know how quickly something like ChatGPT was adopted, I think it took about five days to reach 1 million users.
We've also seen quick adoption within some of the organizational settings. And I think it's really all about but what is personal productivity look like in the future? It is all about how can we start thinking about AI not only as technology, but as a companion to work as part of the workforce. And I think that is significant because it's starting to change the way that we think about what work is where work happens and who does the work. And I think that's going to be you know, really, really interesting.
On the other side, we also need to think about that there is definitely a dark side to this issue. And there's still a lot of things that we do need to resolve. So if we think about things like privacy, we think about things like intellectual property rights. I think most recently, we've seen some lawsuits that The New York Times has taken on Open AI and Microsoft about the utilization of the content to train some of the large language models, as well as on the other side then the ethical concern around how do we actually deal with AI and how do we make sure that the future of AI brings people altogether, as opposed to creating even more inequality within the world pertaining to access to jobs and access to opportunities.
So I think these things are changing the way that business leaders are thinking about their organizations shaping the way that the public sector is thinking about, how are we going to grow this economy to account for some of the opportunity on the horizon? And I think for individuals, it's also asking the question, do we actually know what your career is going to look like in future? What are some of those skills that is going to prepare and make sure that you're relevant in terms of where you need to go?
So on the generative AI side, I think, definitely dominating the conversation at the moment. On the other side, maybe just a quick mention, you've also spoken about sustainability for me, and I'm just to get on my soapbox for a moment and I'm extremely, extremely passionate about the topic, and I think what we've seen beyond reporting and beyond being responsible and conscious businesses, I think sustainability is really become ingrained into the DNA of the organization, because everybody has started to realize that we are seeing significant shifts and starting to feel the pain of us not addressing issues pertaining to sustainability.
To make that practical, think about examples such as climate adaptive practices. All of a sudden, we starting to see organizations having to think differently about labor that happens in extreme heat waves, they have to start thinking very differently about talent having to migrate to other parts of the world, just due to the fact that due to the impact of climate change, they can no longer survive where they used to be. And I think it's starting to enter the realm now that it's not that big thing that's far away. It's a question that we need to resolve today.
And it's a question that organizations need to ask not only around, how do they act in a responsible way, but on the other side, how does sustainability not become something we do, but really becomes something that we are as an organization and the way that we engage? So I think two big things that's happening, but it's a really interesting time, I think, from a mega trend perspective on how that's going to shape the next chapter of work?
What challenges are these trends creating for businesses? Is there a type of business or industry that's particularly being impacted more than others?
Dieter Veldsman (07:04): I think it's continue with the theme around sustainability. And, you know, I think definitely, there's been some more focus on some particular industry. So here, what jumps to mind is energy. I think manufacturing, I think aviation. We've seen a lot of conversation and a lot of scrutiny in those particular industries pertaining to their current business practices, and what is the impact that they have on the environment? What's the impact that they have broader from a societal point of view?
I think having said that, though, in some other abstract ways, sustainability has been impacting all industries in different ways, because ultimately, it's impacting the end consumer, which is impacting our ability to create services and products, which is impacting our ability to operate. And I think what we've started to see is, organizations are realizing that it's that old variable that we sometimes talk about i.e. air pollution is everybody's problem, because you are also breathing the air.
And I think that's something that we are starting to see ingrained a lot more in our organizations think about the future and what that's going to look like. What is interesting for me, though, is we starting to see this rise of employee activism, where they start holding organizations a lot more accountable for their stance and for the impact that they have in the environment.
And here, I'm not talking about corporate social responsibility, I'm really talking here about the fact that, are organizations living up to the promises and to the claims that they make around being socially responsible citizens? And that ranges from things like greenwashing, it ranges from things like from a diversity washing point of view organization, saying that they look very different than what they really are internally.
That for me is a healthy movement, because I think it's bringing more transparency into the employment relationship, in terms of what we'll find. Bringing it back, just to your question on generative AI. Again, I think there's a strong impact across all industries, I do think we are starting to see the impact foster in certain industries. Here for me good examples are insurance, financial services, I think we're already starting to see a lot of the impact of AI resulting in new types of processes, new ways of engaging with clients and with customers.
There's been some significant research and case studies on things like call centers and Client Servicing this is how the introduction of generative AI has actually increased the quality of outputs, the number of queries that can be resolved and the personalization that we can bring into the client experience, and I think we're going to start to see that a lot more. The biggest challenge, I believe, at this stage is also that there's just so much we still don't know about generated AI.
And you know, it's a little bit like the metaphor of the dog running off to the bus. And now it's called the bus and I will listen doesn't quite know what to do with it. And I think there's some real questions at the moment that we're asking to say, it is fantastic that we have it but how is it useful, and how do we adopt it responsibly? And that's the challenge for organizations. How do you experiment within the confines of making sure that you still manage the risk that comes with introducing something new into the environment, especially something as significant as generative AI.
And so that ambiguity in itself is a challenge for businesses to try and make sense of.
Dieter Veldsman: Most definitely. And I think that ambiguity and here I blame public media a little bit. If you look at what some of the headlines are i.e. "14 million jobs will be lost by 2030 through AI." It's not telling the full picture and I think it's driving a culture and an understanding of fear, as opposed to giving a holistic picture to say, 14 million jobs will look very different by 2030. Yes, some of them will no longer be there, but nobody's talking about that they will also be new opportunities and that work will look very, very different. So I think we need to start helping the public understand that it's a wholistic narrative that they need to be able to consume.
And it's not nitpicking and taking certain shock statements, and then igniting this culture of fear, which will lead towards the fact that people don't want to adopt it, which will lead towards the fact that I believe a lot of people will be left behind because it is here, and it's not going away. It's a lot more about saying how can we adopt it responsibly, and how can we prepare people for that shift?
A great organization is an organization in Belgium, at the moment a telecommunications company, that have acknowledged the need that AI is going to change their business significantly, and they've got a great need for people with that particular skill set in 3, 4, 5 years from now.
The market that they're in is not going to be able to provide that to them. So they've implemented a fantastic re skilling opportunity, giving everybody in a certain part of their business for the next year 20% of the time back, so one day a week to actually invest in training that they provide. And by the end of the year, if you kind of passed that proficiency threshold, you're eligible to actually start shifting your career into a new domain to meet some of those needs and those requirements.
To me, that's proactive thinking, that's about helping people understand that yes, change needs to happen, but here's a pause for you, if you're willing to put up your hand and say, this is something that I want to do. So that's about creating a different future, and not about I think lamenting about the things that we are going to lose, if I can call it that, you know, out of these changes that we will experience. And that's really important because this fear driven culture is not serving anyone and I think it's going to be to the detriment of everyone if we don't treat that in a responsible manner.
Which brings me to my next question, because it sounds like there is some career development, professional growth, re-skilling, up-skilling, that organizations are going to need to start thinking about. So what new skills and capabilities do leaders need to develop to help businesses adapt?
Dieter Veldsman (12:30): I think that's a fantastic question because I'm a firm believer that leadership in organizations is the root cause of all good and all evil in an organization that takes place due to the impact on culture, due to the impact on just the way that the organization thinks about who they are. Now, first, it's a tough time to be a leader, I think there's a lot of things it's being expected from leaders and are facing increasingly complex situations, which they need to make sense of. But for me, really, when you ask the question around, you know, what capabilities and skills would a leader need in the future for me, there's six that really stand out. And there's a lot of research studies that kind of showcase and accentuate a lot of these.
And the first one for me is the ability to deal with complexity, and the ability to balance conflicting priorities. Now, I know that sounds like something that executives have been doing for a very long period of time and that might be true, but the level of complexity that we're dealing with today, and the extent to which the impact of the complex that we face, that is very, very different, because all of a sudden, we have to make fast decisions, that's going to have ramifications for the organization for a number of years to come in terms of our positioning.
So I firmly believe the leader of the future needs that ability to say how am I going to deal with the complexity and not become so overwhelmed that I actually lead towards inaction; that I actually just do nothing and I don't know what is going to be that next step. So that for me definitely is the first one.
The second one and I firmly believe this is an under-appreciated skill in a leader is your ability to really take strategy and translate that into tangible action that inspires people to move money. And what I mean by that is strategy execution is really under-appreciated in organizations, because we all look up towards the big direction setting, and we don't spend enough time with leaders that says, but this is the roadmap, and this is how we are going to get. And for today's leader and tomorrow's leader, I think that that is important because people can see the future, but they want to understand what is the next steps we need to take today, because it is so uncertain, because it's so new, and the extent and the amount of change that we are seeing.
It leads me a little bit towards my third one, which is still on the kind of thinking side of leadership. So it's really around how do you make sure that you can apply abstract thinking. How do I connect patterns around what is happening in the world and make sense of that for people? How am I able to see through all the noise that we are currently experiencing and get to the crux of what the issue is and what the matter is, so that abstract thinking around seeing the patterns through the noise is going to be quite important. A little bit more on the skill set side again for me is how do you leverage technology and digital?
You know, I come out of the HR domain so unfortunately or our studies still tell us that a lot of HR professionals and other leaders still lag very much with the adoption of new technologies and to leverage that to improve their personal productivity around the way and the manner in which they work. So I think to be a successful leader, and to be able to really get and free up your own time, leveraging technology, and digital as part of how you work is going to be really, really important. And with that, I don't mean you learn how to use social media, right, which is what a lot of people default to, I really think it's about ingraining and saying, how does technology become an extension of how I work, when I work, and what I do? And how can I actually bring that on board in terms of how I approach work?
For me, the fifth one is very much behavioral. So resilience, grit, tenacity. Leaders of the future are going to still be faced with a lot of challenges that they are going to have to overcome. It's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of uncertain situations. And that tenacity and resilience to say, but let's move through this. And yes, we've been knocked down, but you're going to get back up again. And this is how we are going to tackle that and ready to approach what that next step is going to be. I think people are going to follow leaders that they believe can get them through the good and the difficult times. And we've seen that in a lot of organizations where people will stay for great leaders that they trust and that they believe are authentic in terms of how they deal with them and are a lot more human centric in their approach.
My last one is around self-awareness. And I know this is probably the age old one that everybody always talks about when we think about leadership. But really for me, self-awareness for me is around who am I is a leader, and acknowledging that leadership is a privilege, especially in the type of world and environment that we are going into and understanding why would people follow me and understanding who I am as a leader? Something that's been really interesting for me over the last couple of years, if you look at the Forbes 30 Under 30 List, there was some real interesting research being done to look at a lot of those people later in life who was celebrated as young upcoming leaders actually had a lot of criminal charges for things like fraud, et cetera, brought against them later on in their careers.
The point I want to make out of this is, I believe that we've been celebrating the innovators, the disruptors, the people that throw out the applecart and try something new. And yes, that is important. We need innovation, but we also need responsible leadership that understands that they're dealing with real human beings, that they are dealing with people that they need to guide towards what this next future is going to look like.
And you know, maybe if I might put it bluntly, maybe that's the slightly more boring leader that's a little bit more predictable, a little bit more stable, a little bit more considered in some of the decisions that they make. And then we can only develop that if people are self-aware around who they are, and we can kind of guide them as part of that journey. So for me, those are kind of the six things that really stand out, when I think about what a good leader would look like in the future. There are a number of other subsets and skills, etc, that we can also talk about, but they roll for me up into some of these different themes around who I am, what I do and where I do it. And that's the six capabilities that I've spoken about.
Felicia Shakiba: That's fantastic to hear, because you've outlined these core competencies of what the future leaders who will be successful might look like. And so now the thought is, how do we help those leaders get there? And historically, the human resource's function has that ownership of development in the business.
How does the human resource's function evolve to address the challenges that businesses face from these trends?
Dieter Veldsman (18:34): Well, first off there, I need to start with saying that, I believe there's never been a better time to be in HR than today, and for a variety of reasons. I think HR has been in the spotlight over the last couple of years around our contribution and what that means and what that looks like. I think there's been some positive movements, also around the real role that we do play around things like leadership development, the strategy of the business, etc. So taking that aside, there's a couple of things, I think, real challenges that HR still faces in order to really be able to step into this role of developing leaders of the future playing that kind of strategic role.
And the first one for me is, and this might sound a little bit strange, but I think HR has got a PR problem.
And what I mean by that is the baggage that comes with HR and the misunderstanding that people have about what the function is and why it exists, I think that's a real challenge for HR professionals to have to overcome if we're going to be able to step into those different roles. Something that is happening at the moment is anything that happens internally, is immediately broadcasted out there. And it's not about containment, but it's about being very comfortable with the fact that what you do in HR, and how you treat employees and the experience that you create, and the fairness of the practices that you've got in place, you need to be able to defend that and in the public world of debate.
And I think that's an interesting thing around also what role HR plays around business reputation, what role HR plays around being that protector of good practice within the organization. I think that's really, really important The second one, we do need to acknowledge that businesses have changed. And I think HR models then also need to change to accommodate that.
You know, in a lot of instances, I still see organizations setting HR up as operational service centers and then expecting something completely different. If you're not going to invest in HR the same way that you would invest in any other business function, it's not going to deliver to you the expectations that you have.
You know, we've just done some research around L&D investment within HR, and it's really disappointing and shocking to see that HR is always kind of at the bottom end of the totem pole around the investment that we actually get into succession planning within HR itself as a function, preparing the next level of HR leaders, and then even just the basic reskilling that we see are those environments.
You know, I think that's the case so much about the business and getting them ready that people forget that we are also an organization in our own right, within the context of the broader organization. I think there's also been, you know, we've touched a little bit on the changes that technology is bringing, but I do believe, and this is something that really excites me that, you know, we've been talking about strategic business partnership and BP models for years and self-service centers and self-driven kind of, you know, employee services. I think, finally, for the very, very first time, we've got the technology in place that can actually provide that experience to employees at an affordable and accessible way.
And I want to use an example out of my previous life, you know, I was the CHRO for a multinational organization, 70% of our employees were actually based in the field sales employees. And we realized that 90% of our HR offering actually never reached them, because it was location bound, they had to be in the office, or they had very, very basic access towards some of the HR technology solutions that we had. So I finally believe, you know, when I talk about something like L&D, how do I meet you where you are at in the flow of work in terms of what you're doing, because HR is not something you go and do.
HR is something that happens as part of when and how and where we work. Now, I think that if we can nail that as an HR professional going forward, I think there's some really, really significant changes there for us. So L&D in the flow of work, other HR services in the flow of work as well but meet employees where they're at because HR is not something that I go and do you know. HR is something that just has to be part of how I manage my relationship with my employer, with my manager with my leader.
And I think that's a really important thing to change in the perception of when is it that I deal with HR, and why do I need to deal with HR? And the last point I want to make you asked about challenges and we've just released a report that talks about what is the state of HR currently. And one of our biggest insights, which was really interesting for me to see was the manner in which we think about HR as a career for a lot of people is not actually building the type of talent capacity that we want in an HR function in an HR domain. So what I mean by that, we hear these words, often, I stumbled into HR, I just happened to move into HR because it wasn't available opportunity. And there's nothing wrong with that, because we also need to provide people with opportunities.
But we also- they need to make HR a lot more attractive in the future so that people actually also choose it as a profession within the realistic view of what HR work actually looks like. And I think that's a very, very big shift that we are going to have to make a big challenge for us to overcome.
Felicia Shakiba: That's so interesting. I do hear that a lot. And sometimes I'm beside myself, because I think, Gosh, you stumbling into HR, it's like saying, do you stumble into engineering? There's still work that needs to be done in order to, you know, make that role successful. I guess it could be a cultural thing, depending on the type of company that brings people into that role. But it's a very interesting moment, when hearing someone say that I would say. I want to talk a little bit about in response to how we see leaders and managers developing to address these challenges.
How can human resource professionals intentionally craft their skills and capabilities to support the business?
Dieter Veldsman (24:01): So I think we've already touched on, you know, up-skilling as a priority, and not only in terms of investment, from an organizational point of view, I think there's also a personal connection that an HR professional needs to make to say, I'm actually going to invest in myself, we are the profession that is guilty of business by far the most because you're always fighting fires, and sometimes rightfully so, or on other sides, you know, it's just that there's just no resources that somebody can take a step back and say, I now need to think about myself my career, what that's going to look like because it's the benefit of me as an individual, but also you know the organization.
The second thing I think we do need to do is we need to acknowledge and realize that we have to take a step back and a holistic skill around what is the actual skill set of the HR professional going forward, because that's pretty misunderstood. Now there's the big movement at the moment around data driven evidence-based HR - we've been talking about that for a number of years as well. But if you then really go and dial down into what are these right into an HR job description at the moment, there's very little of that in there.
The very big mismatch when we start saying, this is what we want the profession to be, and then this is the skill set that people have already, how are we going to build that roadmap and that bridge for them to be able to get there? And something that I am afraid of that I think is going to start happening more and more is, we keep on talking so much about what HR needs to be, we forget that there is a whole bunch of people already within HR that is already there that we also need to develop and take forward into that next step. Because we are forgetting that we should never ever alienate the current function at the expense of creating something else.
So when we talk about analytics is the future, that's definitely the right way to go. But how do we get the people that I've never had exposure to that, to really start understanding the value that it has getting interested in it, and to bring them along that particular curve, as opposed to creating the sense of insecurity, that I'm not good enough, as an HR professional, I'm never going to be there, I'm never going to be able to step into something different. And I think that's really, really important that we also think about the identity of the HR professional, and how are we really going to get them there.
For me, the other one is also in this I - as a fellow HR professional, I say, with a lot of love and respect, we need to get out there from an exposure point of view. Our latest research report that I referenced earlier, what was so interesting is HR is one of the functions that once we in the HR family, very few people move out into business, very few people rotate into other projects, that is not added was an HR flavor to it. So we keep on talking about we want to be multidisciplinary in nature, we keep on talking about the fact that we want to multi skill and cross skill. But we're not putting ourselves into those positions to actually learn from others in a very, very different way, and start gaining new business type of skill sets that make us more impactful as HR professionals.
So things like rotations in the HR domain, I think that's incredibly important. I don't know how you can be an HR leader if you haven't done your stint in technology or in finance or in operations, because I think it gives you a very different flavor, and view and perspective of how you can add value wearing your HR at once you've understood what it looks like on call it that side of the table as well.
Felicia Shakiba: I couldn't agree more with you, I feel like I have a very interesting background where I've had my own HR tech company, and I've stood up a couple of startups, and have learned about marketing and design and finance and leadership in multiple ways, and it only makes me a greater HR professional.
And I really have a full sense of the business, especially when I'm helping or supporting a leader or coaching the leader in finance or in design and understanding Oh, you probably need to collaborate, you know, cross functionally, because in order to execute your responsibilities in your role, I know that design needs to speak to engineering and engineering needs to have that open communication with the sales team, otherwise, the sales team doesn't know what they're selling. So I couldn't agree more with you that rotation piece I think is so critical and very impactful.
Dieter Veldsman: Completely agree, it also gives you context, right. And I think what I mean by context, it gives you real context, I think back about a project that I was on in an organization where it was a media company, major sports broadcaster, and I spent a couple of weeks job shadowing what the people actually did. And what I mean by that is, you know, holding cameras sitting in little production bands driving around towards these different sports events.
Now, as an HR professional when I went back to the office and had to start thinking about, Okay, how are we going to drive a very different way of working for these individuals, I had all the contexts, I had all the networks there to actually provide a solution that was tangible and practical. And something that could work as opposed to just being something that sits on paper. I think as well to your point as other rotations, it gives you in a much more holistic understanding also of some of the symptoms that we see, you know, we often hear HR doesn't speak the language of the business, or we don't connect it to tangible outcomes. Those things change when you start understanding what it is that people are looking for on that side.
And it's really you have to kind of live with it a little bit more and sit in it and get out from, you know, I think our traditional comfort zones and barriers. I can remember I did a stint in Information Technology at some point. And after my very first meeting, I had a list of probably 25 terms that I had no idea what they meant. And I just started working through all the different acronyms to start understanding at least what were people saying, you know, that was sitting around me at the table at the time.
Six months later, you almost have adopted that same language. So when I went back to HR, whenever somebody then started talking about, we need this type of skill set that is able to do X, Y, and Z, way better understanding of what it was that they were actually looking for. And I think you know, that's silly little examples, which we think is obvious, but in practice, it doesn't happen. People get into the function, they stay there, and then they become very isolated actually from where a lot of other things happen within the organization. And I think it's to our own detriment. I think there's some real good opportunities for us.
Can you provide any examples of how businesses have been successful at addressing specific trends like sustainability or the ChatGPT adaption wave through the support of the human resources function, or other.
Dieter Veldsman (30:06): Most definitely, and I want to split it into kind of two camps. Right? I think on the one side, let's first look at the organizations that have absolutely grasped the opportunities that generative AI has brought to them as a core business and human capital has definitely helped with that. So for example, it is a company that's utilizing some of the AI that they had before to build a new product line around recognition pertaining to things like traffic fines, and where public services are required, and the AI there actually utilizes that technology to be able to understand, oh, this is a streetlamp that needs to be changed, and then monitors that over a period of time to make sure that happens. That's a very silly example. But what I love about that is they took an existing business and then they say, but we already have the technology now that it's a little bit smarter, how else can we apply it, for example.
And I think that's a very interesting thing to say. It's not only about opening up new opportunities, sometimes it's just about opening up that incremental opportunity that you find within the business there. And I think that's really, really interesting. I've already spoken about, you know, in call centers, I think there's been some really significant things. I think there are so many chatbots out there at the moment. Some of them great, some of them not. Some of them learning and making all sorts of mistakes. What I do like about that experimentation, and a lot of businesses, and these are financial services business that I think has done really, really well. It provides this compete, personalized experience, and are very transparent if you're speaking to an AI, you know, kind of agent on the other side.
But it is a very different experience that you get a lot more personalized, they can help a lot more people or a lot more reduction in terms of people are not being kept waiting, feels a lot more responsive now from their side. The other camp, let's talk about HR internally, because I'm very excited about the changes that we're seeing there. Some fantastic applications at the moment in terms of things like content curation in L&D. Real personalized recommendations, and there's a company implemented that on top of their LMS and their content library, where the AI actually learns with employees in terms of collecting a whole bunch of data, obviously, in a transparent way, and helping that to actually influence career paths for them and recommending content. Now, that has been done before, there's nothing new.
But what I really like about this, it's starting to get a lot more specific and taking into account people's personal ambitions, but it's not interests. Now the projects that I've worked on, how are those skills evolving and developing? Something else I've seen, which is interesting is for me, where it's been applied to things like AI based coaching. Now, for a lot of people, on the one hand, they say, well, I don't want to do that at all, you know, I still want that human interaction, which I think is fair. On the other side, it's also opening up an avenue for people that would have never been able to access coaching at lower levels of the organization, because that's not necessarily where that's being implemented.
So when you then have to start thinking about the fact that the AI is getting good enough, that we are able to give 80% of people, for example, access to a coach that can guide them on their career journey, versus only kind of sticking to the top echelon, because that's typically where executive coaching would take place, or business coaching would happen. I think that's a fantastic opportunity, opening up in a lot of new ways for people to actually gain access to developmental opportunities. And for me, that's exciting in the HR space, because we're not only scaling our efficiency, but we are actually scaling the impact and effectiveness of some of the practices that previously have been constrained by some previous boundaries. That, for me is a really exciting time in HR.
What does the future of human resource careers look like given these changes in the business environment?
Dieter Veldsman: So we've started talking in- so I mentioned earlier that, you know, we still have this notion of a lot of people have stumbled into HR. And that is the same with other professions as well, we are not unique in that nature. However, I think there's a couple of changes that will happen in terms of the future of HR careers. So I think on the one side, you made the point to say, you know, you don't just stumble into engineering. So I think there is a part of professionalization and structure that needs to come into how we develop HR professional at different levels, and what that needs to look like, as well as in order to create consistency in when somebody operates at a particular level, and, you know, we can talk for days about what a title implies, but that there's a certain expectation around what that individual is able to do, and the type of way that they operate.
So I think there will be some professionalization formalization, you know, with regards to that. The second one for me there is I think, we're going to also start thinking a lot broader about the career patterns that we find within HR. At the moment, most progression in HR works in one of two ways. It's still upward progression based on what I've seen before the very traditional way of developing my career, or I move upwards and then at some point, I decide I want to leave the profession.
And what's interesting in some of our studies is we find people almost don't stick with HR for their entire career. They get to a point and we call it kind of the mid career out flux. We then say, you know, the organizational environment is not allowing me to really do what I want to, I'm going to leave and I'm going to do something else. You know, I will consult, I will coach, I will do something else where I can see the impact that I'm making, and I'm a little bit released out of this environment where we have to fight for my existence all the time, don't budget for the things that I want to do.
And I think that needs to change. If we really want good solid sound HR leaders in the future, we need to create an environment that will produce them overtime and make it attractive for people and make it viable for people to stay in the profession and in within the career. So you know, for me, there's a couple of real practical ways we can do that. We recently launched an HR career map, which is a free tool, if anybody wants to play with it just to help people understand that there's not just one or two opportunities in HR, because for a lot of people, they get into HR stumble into it.
Now I'm working in a small team of 3, 4, 5. I think that's what the future looks like. I don't realize that in this is kind of by our calculations, just on our little career map, there's more than 100 possible career paths that you can take into different parts and specializations of HR over time. But people don't know that and they don't realize that and you can't plan for something that you can't see that you don't believe is possible. We need to raise that consciousness around what an HR career can become and how meaningful it can be for you, if you make certain decisions and develop certain elements.
And then maybe the last thing I want to mention here is that we have to change the way we describe HR jobs and the labels that we attach to that. When you run a search today on LinkedIn and say what's the most common skill listed in an HR job, you're going to get something like Microsoft Office skills, you're going to get something like planning...
Felicia Shakiba: Oh no.
Dieter Veldsman (36:35): That's the type of stuff that we still find to a large extent. And then the question is, but why can't we start really thinking about what the crux is of our contribution? And why can't we then start really developing people and getting them passionate about that, because that's the reason that people want to wake up from an HR point. I think there's a lot of work need to be done. I think also HR careers have been neglected a bit, I think there is some really interesting things that we can do there.
But for me, it's just about educate people about the possibilities, show them what the future can look like and connect people in a global community, which is one of the things we try to do so that HR professionals find out that they can speak to other people and start seeing what else is possible in another industry, or what is possible in a large organization, or what's the benefits of being an HR professional in a smaller organization. So they can find their place.
And they can find something that's aligned to their ambitions, and their goals and where they can feel they make a meaningful contribution. And I think those are some of the changes that I hope we see in the next couple of years.
Felicia Shakiba: I hope so too. I'm right there with you. I'm crossing my fingers, hoping more people listen to this particular episode on my show. And so I have one more question for you. And I know that a lot of our listeners might be in the Human Resources profession, but many of our listeners are executive team leaders.
As we think about these macro economics, and how their human resource departments might evolve to best support the business, what advice do you have for executive teams that are looking to ensure that their HR function continues to add value to the business in the future?
Dieter Veldsman: My first comment might sound a little bit contradicting here, but I think expect more from HR if you're a business leader. So be comfortable to expect that HR is there to help you solve your biggest challenges within the organization because they tend to be people challenges. Having said that, the caveat is that enable them to be able to do so. And that comes with a whole bunch of things that I think business leaders need to think about. In a boardroom dynamics, unfortunately, in a lot of organizations still kind of pushes HR a little bit towards the side. And if you don't believe me go and check where HR is on the agenda. In an executive meeting. We help the client at the end of the day...
Felicia Shakiba: Nowhere near close to important on the agenda, I know.
Dieter Veldsman (38:50): Exactly, spot on. So change some of those types of elements so that we can really start ingraining the contribution that we make in the core business issues in a very different way. The second one is that we have to then change our language, the way we talk about HR, I'm not a big supporter of the HR is a support function; HR is a partner to; HR is there to enable... HR is core business, if it wasn't core business, it wouldn't be there.
And it's an important part of that and for us to change the perception about the function, we have to change the language in the way we speak about the function and the airtime and the credibility that we provide to it. And then lastly, the one that I've mentioned earlier is don't be afraid to invest in HR and then expect the return on investment over time. I think that's perfectly okay. But if you want a particular type of HR function, you're going to have to build that type of HR organization with the right skills, technologies, et cetera. Because like any business, HR is an organization that needs to be set up in a particular way, and it's to operate with discipline according to certain business principles.
And that's what I think we should try how business executive leaders understand that HR also has to adhere to certain things same way that you would run another business with a new audit organization, but then we have to make sure that those people are equipped to be able to do that now. Whether that's through skills, technology, the resources that they require, it's worth it. But you have to make sure that we also invest in it.
Felicia Shakiba: Absolutely. And I just want to add to that, because you said something about technology, and I was at the HR Tech Conference in Vegas earlier last year. And there is an abundance of technology out there for this profession for the HR/ human resources, profession and function. And all I kept hearing at the conference was we're a vendor and we're entering this space, because HR is the least tooled function in the business.
And I just thought to myself, gosh, is that really true? And I said, Yes, I guess it is, you know, marketing has all of these tools, engineering, a number of tools, you know, their product and R&D. But why haven't I bumped into HR professionals that are talking more openly about technology and leveraging technology to make great choices and build relationships and strategic decision making. And I've always been a really big fan, but I think that as a function we really need to tap into what that technology is, and looks like what it does for the business, and then be able to get investment for those technologies, and really bring that to the forefront to strengthen our influence and our abilities to make a difference.
Dieter Veldsman (41:38): Completely agree. And I think the change that we have seen is I think HR technology, 10-15 years ago, you either had nothing or you had an ERP- very expensive, you know. So by the time you got there, there were so many things that you had to fix in the organization to be able to get. I think what is really interesting, and I think it's a fantastic shift and movement is, is all of these hybrid type of solutions, that you can now start stringing together from an HR point of view to actually have a very realistic, cost effective, affordable way of bringing technology into the business regardless of the size that you're at. And I think that's a real opportunity.
But it does require us to also start thinking in a way, because tech is not going to solve everything right? It has to start thinking in a way in, for example, I often asked some of our clients we work with, I say, who takes care of your HR technology architecture? And they say, oh, no, that sits in IT. But you know, we partner really well with them and they support us. If you want to own the relationship and the experience, you need to own the toolset that's going to drive that. So bring that skill on board, appoint a Head of HR Tech.
Appoint somebody that brings the technological savviness that sits on your executive team that brings that conversation into the room, the same way that you want to bring the people conversation to the executive boardroom as an HR exec, you want somebody to bring the tech conversation into your executive meeting as well, if you're going to start making very different decisions about that.
So I think we are at a point where a lot of new tooling is also coming and I think a lot of fantastic, you know, SAS type of technologies is also there and beyond that. It is more about how do we string that together, remembering that there is one end user there's one experience, we don't want that to be fragmented. So I think an exciting time in the tech space, but yes, invest in it otherwise, you're not going to get anything else other than what you've got currently...
Felicia Shakiba: Dieter, this has been such an amazing conversation. Your knowledge is incredible, and so on point with everything that I've experienced, and others have experienced. So thank you so much for being part of this incredible episode. And I hope so many people hear what you've shared today.
Dieter Veldsman: Thank you very much for hosting me and keep on doing the good work and was lovely to be here with you.
Felicia Shakiba: From the Netherlands, that's Dr. Dieter Veldsman, Chief HR Scientist at the Academy to Innovate HR.
